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Author
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Topic: Amp Tone Improvments Anyone?
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D4DSchi3
Active Member
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posted 02-16-2005 07:52 PM
 
I have a Behringer GX112 (1x12 60 watt solid state amp with some on board effects) that just seems to suck the tone right out of my other equiptment. The clean channel sounds pretty good and the gain channel is better than most solid state amps I've tried, but when I run my Ibanez Tube King (an all-tube overdrive pedal based on the Chandler circut) into the clean channel it just sounds terrible! Beleive it or not, the amp's solid state distortion sounds more tube like than the all-tube overdrive of the pedal. I know that this pedal can sound good with a solid state amp because I've ran it through a few fender and marshall solid state amps and It sounded great. I'm a college student on a budget so I don't have the resources to buy a new amp. Does anyone have a suggestion?IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 02-16-2005 10:14 PM
D4D, if you set everything "flat" (12 o'clock normal position) and plug something like an "electric" acoustic straight in, how does the tone compare compare to its unplugged sound? i've noticed with some economy solid state amps (like the small crate models) that they tend to use some electronic "coloring" in an almost convincing attempt to make them sound like a good quality tube amp. Marshall used to make some really good tube amps, but followed this suit to make some more competitive models (pricewise) but their sound and reputation basically went down the tubes (pun intended). These new amps don't have much headroom or tolerance to oversaturation or clipping levels, so if you push em any, instead of getting sweet crunch and overdrive breakup, what you get is crud. Also, things like a replacement speaker of incorrect impedance, or an input design intolerant to loading (such as some stomp boxes tend to do) can severely affect an amp's sound.IP: Logged |
D4DSchi3
Active Member
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posted 02-16-2005 11:37 PM
The amp does claim to have "virtube technology." That may be the source of my woes.IP: Logged |
JeffC
Active Member
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posted 02-17-2005 12:16 AM
I think you made your own point with this statement "Beleive it or not, the amp's solid state distortion sounds more tube like than the all-tube overdrive of the pedal"We are in a time where built in amp distortion is taking the place of most overdrive pedals, and the clean channels are not meant for the overdriven sound to be pumped through them...I play through a Peavey XXX 120 watt amp, it has 3 channels, and two of em are super hot dirty channels..I not only could not even imagine using a overdrive pedal with it, I do not even see how, or even better yet, hear how it could possibly ever be more overdriven than it already is..so the solution seems simple from what I have gathered..dump the pedal, and use the amps own distortion... IP: Logged |
racing elijah
Member
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posted 02-17-2005 08:53 PM
D4D:Does your amp have either a line in or FX loop that you could plug your pedal into? i.e. plug your guitar into the pedal, then from the pedal to either a line in or FX return. In doing this, you will bypass the preamp section of the amp. Compare the tone - you may not get the same overall volume output, but you could do this just to test between the preamp tonal characteristics and the power amp portion. I am not familiar with the Behringer amp, but I'm guessing this amp is way cheaper then a fender or marshall counterpart, so it might not be fair to compare your sound to those amps as the quality of components and design circuitry will probably be better. The other suggestion of dumping the stomp box and using the amp distortion may be a suitable option since you did mention the sound was "more tube like then the tube pedal". Alan IP: Logged |
SixStringWing
Active Member
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posted 02-18-2005 08:51 AM
re wrote: quote:
Does your amp have either a line in or FX loop that you could plug your pedal into? i.e. plug your guitar into the pedal, then from the pedal to either a line in or FX return. In doing this, you will bypass the preamp section of the amp.
Be careful with this. While rules are often broken in the name of creativity, keep in mind that the loop is best for time-based effects like delay, etc. Overdrive and distortion stomps almost always sound better in front of the pre. Sounds like you need more headroom in the pre and/or power section (like those Fenders and Marshalls), or possibly better speaker support. If you're happy with the built in distortion, stick with it for now. Save your pennies for an upgrade - if you stick with solid-state, go for at least 100W and two 12's. All-tube amps can be very good at 50W or even less with only one 12.IP: Logged |
D4DSchi3
Active Member
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posted 02-18-2005 01:44 PM
Thanks guys!
I've kind of combined racing elijah's suggestion with the idea of just living with the amp's built in distortion and came up with an acceptable result. The amp does have an effects loop(acutally, it has both paralell and series loops) that I tried running the pedal through. Although it does not have as much gain as when I run it in front of the preamp, it sounds much better. This doesn't really sound very good through the clean channel because the amp processes the signals seperately or somethig so I end up getting a clean sound and a overdriven sound simultaneously. Although this is a fun tone, its not what I want for my main gain tone. However, it works really nicely as a boost on the amp's gain channel. After reading racing elijah's post I tried running my guitar straight into the box and then into the loop input and the results are very nice. It sounds great, but the downside is that I bypass the digital effects and the amp's eq section in the process. This isn't really an acceptable way to use the amp in my opinion because I can't eq my clean tone and it just isn't as versitale as the setup I mentioned previously. I think I'll stick with this until I graduate from college and get a job that pays a little better than the fast food joint I work for right now. Thanks again! IP: Logged |
racing elijah
Member
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posted 02-18-2005 03:58 PM
D4D:Glad some of the suggestions helped. Good plan to wait until you have funds to get a kick'n amp. If you are interested, I have some cost effective suggestions for getting a great performing tube amp setup that won't break the bank. Alan IP: Logged |
D4DSchi3
Active Member
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posted 02-20-2005 11:59 PM
shure, that sounds good!
I'm shure I'd enjoy the reading even if I don't put the suggestions into action.IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 08-09-2005 11:53 PM
D4, see the "Recommendations for graphic EQs" topic for some recommendations on amp tone improvements.btw, speaking of tone, y'all ought ta hear how sweet my delta blues amp sings since i retubed and rebiased it! if that doesn't ring yer bell, i've been up late tonight working with the Line6 editor software to use my laptop to tweak the presets on the new PODxt that i just got. what a sweet piece of gear!
gaLa
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galadhon
Moderator
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posted 08-22-2005 12:12 AM
hey, anybody interested in improving their tone? no? maybe? duh? well, referencing the chart i posted in the topic holy grail tone, i was wunderin if any guitar players would b interested in a similar chart for guitarists? just thought i'd offer, since a chart like that (plus eq info) made it really easy to organize and program the sound banks on my new PODxt.
gaLaIP: Logged |
SixStringWing
Active Member
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posted 08-22-2005 06:01 PM
Great idea, gala. I'd love to see it.IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 08-23-2005 12:05 PM
Holy Grail Tone:one thing that all guitar players continually seek is great tone. not just A great tone, but a characteristic signature type of tone that varies from style to style and band to band and song to song. since i was a newbie i have been on this quest and i thought i'd share a bit of this info i'd had under my belt, and i recently confirmed it through a little research.
of course, tone is a product of everything from fingers to strings to pickups to instrument to amp to speakers. choice of instrument is more up to you and your preferences, but info on the rest of the "chain" should serve useful, more as a guide to modeling and EQing, than a recommendation to what equipment to covet. i've compiled a list of artists and the type of amps and speakers they've used on different songs and tours, and i'm willing to share this with my brothers. in alphabetical order by amp( scroll down):
STYLE SOUND _____________________________
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GROUP ARTIST _____________________________
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AMP CAB _____________________________
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EFX NOTES _____________________________
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folk rock : _____________________________
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larry carlton larry carlton _____________________________
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dumble od special 1x12 combo _____________________________
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boss bd-2/ dd-3/ : _____________________________
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rock & roll maybelline _____________________________
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chuck berry chuck berry _____________________________
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'53 fender deluxe 1x12 tweed combo _____________________________
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none! : _____________________________
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alternative jeremy _____________________________
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mike mccready pearl jam _____________________________
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'59 fender bassman 4x10 tweed combo _____________________________
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univibe/ dunlop wah/ MXR phase/ TS-9/ :
_____________________________
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rock & roll hootchie koo _____________________________
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rick derringer suzi quatro _____________________________
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'65 blackface twin 2x12 combo _____________________________
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: : _____________________________
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so rock talk about _____________________________
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bonnie raitt bonnie raitt _____________________________
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'65 fender pro jr 1x10 combo _____________________________
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boss cs-3/ stamps drive/ ch-1/ :
_____________________________
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hard rock paranoid _____________________________
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tony iommi black sabbath _____________________________
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laney 100 4x12 (6) _____________________________
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tyco wah/ arbiter treb boost/ :
_____________________________
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rock & roll : _____________________________
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steve carpenter deftones _____________________________
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'65 marshall jmp-1 4x12 greenbacks (4) _____________________________
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boss oc-2/ pn-2 trem/ fz-2/ :
_____________________________
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brit rock white room _____________________________
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eric clapton cream _____________________________
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'65 marshall jtm-45 (kt-66) 2x12 alnico blue
_____________________________
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vox wah/ arbiter face/ arbiter treb boost/
:
_____________________________
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hard rock those about to _____________________________
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angus young acdc _____________________________
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marshall jmp "50" 2x12 (2) _____________________________
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none! : _____________________________
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acid rock experienced _____________________________
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jimmy hendrix jimmi hendrix _____________________________
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'68 marshall SLP 4x12 JBL 120F-6 _____________________________
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vox wah/ mayer octavia/ arbiter face/ uni-vibe/
:
_____________________________
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rave method _____________________________
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chris shinn unified theory _____________________________
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matchless DC-30 2x12 combo _____________________________
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phase/ TS-9/ dunlop wah/ ad-9 :
_____________________________
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alt rock busride _____________________________
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mike einziger incubus _____________________________
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mesa dual recto 4x12 recto _____________________________
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h&k roto/ phase/ verb/ comp/ eq :
_____________________________
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alt rock III _____________________________
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tom delonge blink 182 _____________________________
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mesa triple recto 4x12 recto _____________________________
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aby switch : _____________________________
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alternative teen spirit _____________________________
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kurt cobain nirvana _____________________________
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'mesa studio 22 marshall 4x12 T30 _____________________________
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boss ds-2/ tech 21/ eh chorus/ eh clone :
_____________________________
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cal rock panama _____________________________
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eddie van halen van halen _____________________________
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peavey 5150 4x12 T75 (4) _____________________________
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boss SD-1/ MXR phase/ MXR flange :
_____________________________
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so rock travellin _____________________________
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warren haynes allman bros _____________________________
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soldano slo-100 engl 4x12 V30 _____________________________
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boss mt-2/ dd-3 dly/ : _____________________________
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rock houses of holy _____________________________
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jimmy page led zeppelin _____________________________
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supro S6616 6x9 combo _____________________________
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: : _____________________________
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rock in stereo _____________________________
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brian may queen _____________________________
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vox AC-30 2x12 combo (3) _____________________________
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fryer treb boost/ dunlop wah/ :
_____________________________
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: : _____________________________
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the edge u2 _____________________________
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vox AC-30 2x12 combo _____________________________
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: : _____________________________
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[This message has been edited by galadhon (edited 08-23-2005).] IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 08-23-2005 04:35 PM
of course i'll b updating this chart from time to time. if you have any tweaks or additions, please don't b shy to mention them.
gaLa
IP: Logged |
AJB
Active Member
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posted 08-23-2005 04:53 PM
Great chart Galadhon
www.guitargeek.com Has illustrated layouts of many top guitar players rigs. Even goes as far as listing the string gauges they use! A few differences between this website and some articles in magazines I've read but still and interesting web site to look at.[This message has been edited by AJB (edited 08-23-2005).] IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 08-30-2005 01:24 PM
what about EQing tips? any1 have any tips/suggestions they find helpful? i was going 2 expand the chart to show some eq curves, but the lack of feedback discourages me from going to all that work. c'mon guys, we're "bros" how about sharing some of your tone secrets?
gaLaIP: Logged |
AJB
Active Member
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posted 08-30-2005 04:39 PM
Secrets? I only run my gain at 4/10. And give it a little in the middle [This message has been edited by AJB (edited 08-30-2005).] IP: Logged |
SixStringWing
Active Member
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posted 08-30-2005 05:42 PM
Secrets - well... I don't know about that.I pretty much only use EQ live for clean tones. I'll use a DOD FX40B set like this: 100 = flat
200 = +6
400 = +12
800 = +6
1600 = flat
3200 = flat
6400 = flat Nothing drastic. Just a bit more mid-bass for a jazzier tone from a solid-body. IP: Logged |
SixStringWing
Active Member
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posted 08-30-2005 07:00 PM
Now, for basic amp tone settings, I pretty much follow the Joe Perry system of "everything on 7", though I typically bring the treble up to 8.IP: Logged |
The Geezer
Active Member
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posted 08-31-2005 05:35 AM
I start with everything on 5 and then boost or cut as needed. I also take the bass, mid, trebel, and presence (if there) and run them fully open and fully closed, just to get an ear for what they do to the tone. This way I can make a better call on what to tweak to get the tone I'm looking for.I do all my tweaking with no effects (not even reverb). Once I get the tone, then I'll add effects if I want them. When looking for a crunch tone, I start with the drive all the way down, then slowly bring in the drive to the point where I can get crunch but not a wall of noise. I very much dislike heavily saturated gain. I like to keep definition in my notes and chords. IP: Logged |
laf6354
Active Member
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posted 08-31-2005 08:45 AM
I've never put alot of thought into it, I just adjust and fiddle with the tone controls until I like what I hear. This thread, however, has inspired me to try and be a little systematic about the whole thing. I do run my amp just a little crunchy and then use my Jekyll & Hyde for varying degrees of gain.IP: Logged |
galadhon
Moderator
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posted 12-02-2005 02:52 AM
great discussion on eq'ing tips! what about the pros/cons of eq'ing at the instrument vice pre- preamp, in-loop, or, post- preamp& efx/pre power amp? i like the pre-preamp eq to shape my overall sound, while the onboard eq is for fine tuning it. in-loop and post eq is used (as with speaker modeling) to change the coloring to suit different styles of music...start with everything flat (center notch on active & tbx type controls, all the way up on cut type controls). from there, judge the difference between what your fingers/axe/pups/amp/speakers sound like and what you want them to sound like, then start your corrections in accordance with the above info. typical eq curves are a "tailhump" (bass boost) to warm up the sound for a more rhythm and blues kind of sound, and a "headhump" (treble boost) to brighten up the sound for a more lead kind of sound. you could also combine a mid cut with both a bass and treble boost (a "smileyface") to thin out and clean up a thick and indistinct sound, or combine a cut at one end with a boost at the other. what about the same type discussion for instrument levels (rhythm,lead,& master vol), overdrive (boost) levels, preamp input (channel gain) levels, preamp output (master vol) levels, and power amp levels. for me, it's pretty much the same as with the eq'ing...i like the preamp input gain to shape my overall level, while the onboard vol is for fine tuning it. master vol (preamp out) is used in relation with overdrive/boost efx to bring the level back to norm after adding just enough OD to get "crunchy" when "laying on it" but still be clean and responsive when "backing off". power amp levels are used to adjust the headroom to compensate for how much sound the house "soaks up" due to increased crowd, size, & soft surfaces...start with all the outputs at about 70 to 80%, and the inputs (gains and ODs with about 40 to 50%). that will run everything at the best saturation and efficency level, and thus the best overall sound. from there, slowly bring up the input/OD gains till you just start to hear speaker breakup (a very mild natural type of distortion), then back off just a tad, and readjust the master volume back down to your normal level. as the crowd comes in, you will want to gradually bring up the power amp levels a tad. these are just some possible thoughts on the subject, what are yours? [This message has been edited by galadhon (edited 12-02-2005).] IP: Logged |
KQuintrell
Active Member
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posted 12-19-2005 04:50 AM
There was a great article in this month's issue of Bass Player about Jaco's technique. One thing that I found most useful (regarding tone) was how his strokes are made at the end of the fingerboard to get that swelling growl on the fretless. I've also tried it on fretted, and while not as pronounced as fretless does produce a unique tone. It really does work!Another neat technique that I've learned from one of the leadworship.com instructional videos is to rest the pinky side of my right hand against the strings just above the bridge, aggressively stroking the strings with the thumb. If you get the bass and treble just right and lay off of the downbeat, you get a sound that lends itself to a reggae style. I guarantee you'll have a lot of fun with this! IP: Logged |
KQuintrell
Active Member
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posted 12-19-2005 04:53 AM
Sorry guitarists... I forgot that I linked from the bass forum!IP: Logged |
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